WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.835 --> 00:00:07.895 My name's Nicola Smith, 2 00:00:07.995 --> 00:00:12.055 and I'm a Senior Policy Advisor at, uh, Barnardo's, uh, 3 00:00:12.055 --> 00:00:14.815 looking specifically on children in or leaving care. 4 00:00:15.515 --> 00:00:19.895 And as Katie, uh, mentioned, we worked very closely with, 5 00:00:20.035 --> 00:00:21.175 uh, Manchester Met [Metropolitan University] 6 00:00:21.175 --> 00:00:24.055 and with Katie, uh, in relation to her research. 7 00:00:24.715 --> 00:00:28.375 Um, and what we were trying to do was to do something, uh, 8 00:00:28.525 --> 00:00:32.255 that, uh, really complimented the work that Katie had done. 9 00:00:32.395 --> 00:00:34.935 Uh, Katie, uh, as, as you've just heard, 10 00:00:35.115 --> 00:00:37.095 did some very excellent work, really 11 00:00:37.735 --> 00:00:39.175 drilling down into the figures 12 00:00:39.175 --> 00:00:42.735 and drilling down into the data so that we understood, uh, 13 00:00:42.765 --> 00:00:45.415 what the extent of the problem was. 14 00:00:46.155 --> 00:00:50.615 But, um, uh, what we wanted to do, uh, at Barnardo's was 15 00:00:50.635 --> 00:00:54.455 to actually go, uh, uh, uh, into that world of trying 16 00:00:54.475 --> 00:00:58.575 to understand what were the stories behind these statistics? 17 00:00:58.575 --> 00:01:02.015 What were the, the, the, the, the, the actual true children 18 00:01:02.435 --> 00:01:03.455 behind the numbers? 19 00:01:03.955 --> 00:01:06.735 Who, uh, who were, uh, ending up in prison, 20 00:01:07.195 --> 00:01:11.175 and what was the lived experience of those young people, uh, 21 00:01:11.435 --> 00:01:12.975 uh, uh, who were Black, 22 00:01:13.075 --> 00:01:15.055 had grown up in care and were now in prison? 23 00:01:15.685 --> 00:01:18.455 What was their perception as to, uh, 24 00:01:18.455 --> 00:01:20.575 what were the key triggers, the key factors 25 00:01:20.765 --> 00:01:22.535 that had caused this problem? 26 00:01:23.235 --> 00:01:26.935 Um, and what did they think could have helped prevent it? 27 00:01:27.255 --> 00:01:30.415 I think this gives us a real sort of rich set of, 28 00:01:30.515 --> 00:01:32.455 of qualitative information 29 00:01:32.485 --> 00:01:34.135 that really sort of helps us drive - 30 00:01:34.505 --> 00:01:36.415 we've really got an idea now of the problem, 31 00:01:36.595 --> 00:01:38.375 but this gives us a bit of an idea as 32 00:01:38.375 --> 00:01:39.815 to why we've got the problem 33 00:01:40.475 --> 00:01:42.655 and what the possible solutions might be. 34 00:01:43.955 --> 00:01:48.215 So what did we do? Well, we commissioned a research, uh, 35 00:01:48.435 --> 00:01:53.215 agency, a, a Black research agency, uh, uh, to, uh, cur, uh, 36 00:01:53.315 --> 00:01:54.895 do this, uh, report for us. 37 00:01:55.115 --> 00:01:58.935 It was very important for us - if we're going to talk to, uh, 38 00:01:59.065 --> 00:02:01.055 Black children who've had experience 39 00:02:01.055 --> 00:02:02.935 of care and are in the criminal justice system, 40 00:02:03.205 --> 00:02:05.695 that they had an opportunity to share their stories 41 00:02:05.725 --> 00:02:07.895 with people who they felt that they could relate to. 42 00:02:08.675 --> 00:02:12.695 So we commissioned this, um, uh, research agency, 43 00:02:12.875 --> 00:02:14.335 and they went, um, out 44 00:02:14.335 --> 00:02:17.135 and they, uh, went to four different prisons, 45 00:02:17.595 --> 00:02:18.895 uh, across England. 46 00:02:19.195 --> 00:02:23.215 And they conducted 22 research in... uh, interviews, sort 47 00:02:23.215 --> 00:02:26.575 of in depth research, in interviews with young people 48 00:02:26.715 --> 00:02:28.415 who were Black, in care 49 00:02:28.795 --> 00:02:30.055 and were currently at 50 00:02:30.055 --> 00:02:32.255 that point serving a custodial sentence. 51 00:02:32.595 --> 00:02:33.855 And as I said, this was 52 00:02:33.855 --> 00:02:37.815 to get an idea from their perspective as to, uh, 53 00:02:37.865 --> 00:02:40.295 understand their journey, to understand 54 00:02:40.915 --> 00:02:44.575 how things had started, understand what had gone on in terms 55 00:02:44.575 --> 00:02:47.375 of their experience of the care system, their experience 56 00:02:47.375 --> 00:02:48.775 of the criminal justice system, 57 00:02:49.235 --> 00:02:52.295 and their experience, finally, uh, of the, uh, uh, 58 00:02:52.315 --> 00:02:53.335 uh, prison system. 59 00:02:55.385 --> 00:02:56.725 So what did we find? 60 00:02:57.275 --> 00:02:59.805 Well, the first thing, I'm gonna take you through five, 61 00:02:59.985 --> 00:03:01.045 uh, uh, findings. 62 00:03:01.465 --> 00:03:05.165 The first thing I would say is that young people, uh, uh, 63 00:03:05.555 --> 00:03:06.565 have really said 64 00:03:06.565 --> 00:03:09.645 that they'd experienced irregular social care support. 65 00:03:10.195 --> 00:03:11.365 This doesn't, I think, 66 00:03:11.365 --> 00:03:15.765 necessarily put this group in a unique position in relation, 67 00:03:16.065 --> 00:03:18.085 uh, to other children in care. 68 00:03:18.145 --> 00:03:20.365 We, we hear these stories very often, 69 00:03:20.465 --> 00:03:24.205 but the types of stories we heard were very, um, uh, 70 00:03:24.205 --> 00:03:28.885 similar in that world of changing social workers, uh, 71 00:03:29.185 --> 00:03:33.045 uh, not, uh, not spending long enough with any one worker 72 00:03:33.385 --> 00:03:37.605 to, uh, be able to establish a trusting relationship. 73 00:03:37.995 --> 00:03:40.605 Therefore, feeling, particularly as they were getting 74 00:03:40.625 --> 00:03:42.885 to the end of their care experience, that they didn't know 75 00:03:43.055 --> 00:03:45.685 where to turn, where to go to for advice. 76 00:03:46.305 --> 00:03:48.165 Um, and I've, uh, uh, I've, 77 00:03:48.165 --> 00:03:49.885 I've got some quotes on all of the slides. 78 00:03:50.045 --> 00:03:52.245 'cause I think actually hearing the direct voice, uh, 79 00:03:52.265 --> 00:03:53.845 of the, of the children and young people 80 00:03:54.475 --> 00:03:56.205 does really help bring this to life. 81 00:03:57.025 --> 00:04:01.765 Now, the second, uh, very, uh, definite, um, uh, finding, 82 00:04:02.145 --> 00:04:05.045 uh, from these young people was the extent 83 00:04:05.045 --> 00:04:07.485 to which they'd experienced racism or prejudice, 84 00:04:07.785 --> 00:04:10.445 and the extent to which that they had experienced this, 85 00:04:10.555 --> 00:04:13.805 both from within the social care system, 86 00:04:14.425 --> 00:04:15.565 but also the extent 87 00:04:15.565 --> 00:04:17.845 to which they'd experienced it within the community, 88 00:04:18.345 --> 00:04:21.045 but felt that, uh, often sort of foster carers 89 00:04:21.065 --> 00:04:23.925 or those looking after them weren't very well placed 90 00:04:24.025 --> 00:04:26.125 to be able to handle and 91 00:04:26.125 --> 00:04:30.845 therefore, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, support them 92 00:04:31.385 --> 00:04:35.165 in the, in the, uh, racism that they were experiencing. 93 00:04:35.945 --> 00:04:40.045 So the types of racism they experienced, uh, uh, went, uh, 94 00:04:40.185 --> 00:04:43.365 all the way from sort of small sort of, or, or, or, 95 00:04:43.385 --> 00:04:45.685 or comparatively seemingly small, 96 00:04:45.685 --> 00:04:49.085 but often big for, for, for children, uh, issues such 97 00:04:49.085 --> 00:04:51.965 as not being able to have, uh, foster carers 98 00:04:51.965 --> 00:04:55.245 who understood their sort of skin, hair care needs not being 99 00:04:55.445 --> 00:04:56.765 provided with the right shampoo. 100 00:04:57.055 --> 00:04:58.365 Those types of elements, 101 00:04:58.365 --> 00:05:00.685 which really impacted upon their sense of belonging 102 00:05:00.685 --> 00:05:03.845 and their ability to fit into their new foster family, 103 00:05:04.385 --> 00:05:07.045 to really sort of going out into the community 104 00:05:07.145 --> 00:05:09.605 and experienced some really quite, um, 105 00:05:10.365 --> 00:05:11.605 horrible examples of racism. 106 00:05:12.025 --> 00:05:14.005 Um, some of the young people, uh, 107 00:05:14.005 --> 00:05:17.005 really talked about the impact of having been Black, 108 00:05:17.385 --> 00:05:20.485 but, uh, being placed in, uh, very white communities 109 00:05:20.575 --> 00:05:24.125 where sort of, there were sort of references, uh, made 110 00:05:24.145 --> 00:05:28.365 by people on the street to, to lynchings and to, uh, uh, 111 00:05:28.385 --> 00:05:30.165 and to threats, to beat them up 112 00:05:30.185 --> 00:05:31.845 and things like that on the counts 113 00:05:31.865 --> 00:05:33.165 of the colour of their skin. 114 00:05:33.945 --> 00:05:37.725 And I'd say it really is very obvious in these stories 115 00:05:37.785 --> 00:05:41.605 of racism that we heard from these young people, the extent 116 00:05:41.605 --> 00:05:44.725 to which there was racial stereotyping, um, 117 00:05:45.105 --> 00:05:49.125 and, um, uh, uh, a, a a, a sort of e-experience 118 00:05:49.125 --> 00:05:51.845 of adultification - a real sense 119 00:05:51.875 --> 00:05:54.485 that they would be much more likely to be stopped 120 00:05:54.485 --> 00:05:57.885 and searched, uh, by police officers, are much more likely, 121 00:05:57.885 --> 00:05:59.525 that when they did come into contact 122 00:05:59.595 --> 00:06:02.685 with police officers on the street, there was a real sense 123 00:06:02.685 --> 00:06:04.565 that they were adults, not children, 124 00:06:05.235 --> 00:06:06.845 much more than they felt in terms 125 00:06:06.865 --> 00:06:08.605 of their white counterparts. 126 00:06:09.565 --> 00:06:11.395 Again, I think so good for us 127 00:06:11.395 --> 00:06:12.915 to actually hear the actual quotes 128 00:06:13.475 --> 00:06:16.035 directly from the children and young people we spoke to. 129 00:06:16.295 --> 00:06:18.795 So the real sense that if you were Black 130 00:06:19.095 --> 00:06:23.315 and misbehaving within, within, uh, uh, on the street or, 131 00:06:23.375 --> 00:06:25.635 or within a care home, much more likely 132 00:06:25.635 --> 00:06:27.435 that police officers will be called, and 133 00:06:27.435 --> 00:06:29.795 therefore much more likely that you would enter, uh, 134 00:06:29.795 --> 00:06:31.035 the criminal justice system. 135 00:06:32.295 --> 00:06:34.115 Uh, the third, uh, finding, 136 00:06:34.295 --> 00:06:37.155 and again, this, uh, echoes so much more about 137 00:06:37.155 --> 00:06:38.595 what we hear about children 138 00:06:38.735 --> 00:06:41.435 and young people across the criminal justice, uh, 139 00:06:41.435 --> 00:06:42.635 across the care system, 140 00:06:43.095 --> 00:06:45.755 but was just particularly pertinent for this group. 141 00:06:45.975 --> 00:06:47.835 And that was access to mental health support. 142 00:06:48.335 --> 00:06:51.435 So many of the young people had suffered real significant 143 00:06:51.455 --> 00:06:52.835 trauma within their childhood. 144 00:06:53.095 --> 00:06:55.515 Uh, we heard stories, horrible stories of, 145 00:06:55.775 --> 00:06:59.115 of having seen sort of parents beaten up, murdered, 146 00:06:59.415 --> 00:07:02.275 having seen, um, uh, uh, friends, uh, 147 00:07:02.275 --> 00:07:06.355 suffer really violent acts, and we'd seen, um, uh, uh, this, 148 00:07:06.375 --> 00:07:10.155 and yet, um, the ability to access mental health su... 149 00:07:10.185 --> 00:07:14.075 support was really sort of, uh, difficult. 150 00:07:14.365 --> 00:07:17.635 There was a real sense that, um, uh, that it, 151 00:07:17.635 --> 00:07:19.955 their mental health needs were not recognised, 152 00:07:19.955 --> 00:07:23.115 and that was either in the, um, uh, uh, care system 153 00:07:23.335 --> 00:07:25.555 or within the prison system, um, 154 00:07:25.695 --> 00:07:28.555 and that they felt that they themselves were the ones 155 00:07:28.555 --> 00:07:31.115 who were responsible for, for, um, uh, 156 00:07:31.115 --> 00:07:32.755 making themselves feel safe. 157 00:07:33.195 --> 00:07:36.315 A real sense that they felt that they were the ones who, um, 158 00:07:36.455 --> 00:07:38.195 uh, there was a self-reliance 159 00:07:38.255 --> 00:07:40.635 or a, a real sense of self-reliance. 160 00:07:40.975 --> 00:07:42.475 And that there was a real need 161 00:07:42.495 --> 00:07:45.075 to develop services both within the care system 162 00:07:45.095 --> 00:07:46.635 and within the criminal justice system 163 00:07:46.655 --> 00:07:48.155 that better met their needs. 164 00:07:48.585 --> 00:07:51.635 Many of them were feeling very, very desperate in terms 165 00:07:51.635 --> 00:07:54.235 of their mental health, and yet not receiving the support 166 00:07:54.235 --> 00:07:57.035 that they needed to, to, to be able to, uh, 167 00:07:57.185 --> 00:08:00.475 recover from the trauma that they'd suffered and and thrive. 168 00:08:01.755 --> 00:08:05.975 Um, the fourth finding, um, is the, uh, experience 169 00:08:05.975 --> 00:08:08.055 of being excluded from school 170 00:08:08.275 --> 00:08:10.175 or being taught in Pupil Referral Units. 171 00:08:10.835 --> 00:08:12.735 Um, there's a real correlation 172 00:08:12.765 --> 00:08:16.655 between these young people's experiences with so many 173 00:08:16.715 --> 00:08:20.055 of them having experienced exclusion from school. 174 00:08:20.635 --> 00:08:24.735 Um, again, this seemed to relate often to a lack 175 00:08:24.735 --> 00:08:27.975 of understanding about past trauma, a lack 176 00:08:27.975 --> 00:08:30.855 of understanding about where behaviour might come from, 177 00:08:31.235 --> 00:08:34.175 and a lack of, um, uh, feeling that professionals were 178 00:08:34.175 --> 00:08:37.135 therefore able to offer support and guidance 179 00:08:37.515 --> 00:08:39.695 and would, uh, move towards disciplinary 180 00:08:39.755 --> 00:08:41.535 action very, very quickly. 181 00:08:41.605 --> 00:08:44.175 When behaviour, when behaviour was identified, 182 00:08:45.025 --> 00:08:48.055 there was a real sense of, uh, some of this, uh, 183 00:08:48.075 --> 00:08:49.695 coming about through, uh, 184 00:08:49.695 --> 00:08:51.695 things like multiple placement changes. 185 00:08:52.395 --> 00:08:53.695 So, um, uh, uh, 186 00:08:53.745 --> 00:08:56.325 young people were moving from one school to another. 187 00:08:56.385 --> 00:08:57.485 So consistency 188 00:08:57.485 --> 00:09:00.365 of support within school was difficult to find. 189 00:09:00.985 --> 00:09:05.165 And a real sort of, again, going back to this sense of, uh, 190 00:09:05.645 --> 00:09:08.925 adultification and a sense that many people believe that due 191 00:09:08.925 --> 00:09:10.365 to the colour of their skin, they weren't 192 00:09:10.365 --> 00:09:11.565 being viewed as children. 193 00:09:12.145 --> 00:09:16.405 And that their behaviour that was often, uh, uh, uh, 194 00:09:16.465 --> 00:09:18.765 the res... result, result of past trauma 195 00:09:18.985 --> 00:09:22.205 or past difficulties was, um, being seen 196 00:09:22.305 --> 00:09:26.445 as overly aggressive, overly difficult, um, uh, and 197 00:09:26.445 --> 00:09:28.645 therefore resulting in a strong disciplinary 198 00:09:29.285 --> 00:09:32.605 response from the education system, which wasn't necessary 199 00:09:32.665 --> 00:09:35.805 and wouldn't actually necessarily have happened had the same 200 00:09:36.085 --> 00:09:38.605 behaviour come from somebody who wasn't Black. 201 00:09:39.505 --> 00:09:41.645 Um, and the final, uh, element, 202 00:09:41.865 --> 00:09:44.845 and I think this sort of, uh, links to, to, to many 203 00:09:44.845 --> 00:09:47.565 of our other findings is that young people often felt 204 00:09:47.565 --> 00:09:49.365 that their care status was just 205 00:09:49.365 --> 00:09:50.965 not considered a vulnerability. 206 00:09:51.625 --> 00:09:55.445 It just hadn't been recognised, uh, within, uh, the, 207 00:09:55.505 --> 00:09:56.965 uh, criminal justice system. 208 00:09:56.985 --> 00:09:59.085 And when they entered the criminal justice system 209 00:09:59.865 --> 00:10:03.565 by probation officers, sentences, reports, et cetera, 210 00:10:03.785 --> 00:10:05.645 people did not recognise 211 00:10:05.645 --> 00:10:07.645 that these young people had been in care 212 00:10:07.985 --> 00:10:11.565 and did not recognise that young, that being in care would 213 00:10:11.565 --> 00:10:13.485 therefore increase their vulnerability. 214 00:10:14.145 --> 00:10:18.925 So there really was a s... a sense that, um, uh, that, uh, 215 00:10:19.235 --> 00:10:22.925 care status wasn't, uh, a relevant factor and 216 00:10:22.925 --> 00:10:24.885 therefore isn't being taken into account 217 00:10:24.945 --> 00:10:27.525 and isn't being considered, uh, in terms 218 00:10:27.765 --> 00:10:29.125 of the criminal justice system. 219 00:10:29.185 --> 00:10:31.405 And I think that's very interesting 220 00:10:31.405 --> 00:10:34.245 because you really see, um, uh, 221 00:10:34.385 --> 00:10:38.045 as these young people move into the sort of prison system 222 00:10:38.635 --> 00:10:41.525 that even while they're in prison, there are differences 223 00:10:41.795 --> 00:10:43.725 that result from the fact that you are in care. 224 00:10:43.785 --> 00:10:46.365 You, you will have a personal advisor, 225 00:10:46.505 --> 00:10:48.085 you'll have a pathway plan. 226 00:10:48.785 --> 00:10:52.325 And despite sort of efforts by government departments 227 00:10:52.425 --> 00:10:54.965 to recognise this, and there is guidance out there, 228 00:10:55.245 --> 00:10:57.125 although it's very old and due to be updated, 229 00:10:57.675 --> 00:10:59.885 there's a real sense that, um, uh, 230 00:10:59.885 --> 00:11:02.085 the prison system doesn't recognise on 231 00:11:02.085 --> 00:11:03.245 the ground those differences. 232 00:11:03.345 --> 00:11:06.325 So we still have situations where chil... uh, 233 00:11:06.325 --> 00:11:08.325 young people are being released from prison, 234 00:11:08.415 --> 00:11:11.445 being given a settlement report and doing all of that work, 235 00:11:11.825 --> 00:11:13.965 and the local and the personal advisor, 236 00:11:14.105 --> 00:11:16.885 and the pathway plan isn't being considered in any of 237 00:11:16.885 --> 00:11:19.845 that work, and the personal advisor isn't even being invited 238 00:11:19.865 --> 00:11:22.365 to those meetings regarding the young person. 239 00:11:23.025 --> 00:11:24.645 Um, it's that sense 240 00:11:24.755 --> 00:11:28.485 that we just do not recognise care status within 241 00:11:28.705 --> 00:11:30.125 our criminal justice system. 242 00:11:30.625 --> 00:11:32.965 And until we do, we are not going to be able 243 00:11:33.025 --> 00:11:36.205 to recognise the unique support needs of these group, uh, 244 00:11:36.225 --> 00:11:38.125 of this group, uh, going forward. 245 00:11:39.265 --> 00:11:42.725 So in terms of, uh, uh, what, uh, what we want to do 246 00:11:42.725 --> 00:11:44.405 and what our recommendations are, 247 00:11:44.785 --> 00:11:47.725 and the thing that really came out from our research is if 248 00:11:47.725 --> 00:11:50.005 we're gonna change this, we've gotta go all the way back. 249 00:11:50.425 --> 00:11:52.765 We can't only look at the criminal justice system, 250 00:11:53.165 --> 00:11:55.165 although we do need to look at the criminal justice system, 251 00:11:55.505 --> 00:11:57.245 but we need to go all the way back. 252 00:11:57.585 --> 00:11:59.525 So the first thing we have to do is we have 253 00:11:59.525 --> 00:12:02.725 to improve the experience of Black children in foster care. 254 00:12:03.225 --> 00:12:05.845 And I mean, in particular at Barnardo's, we think 255 00:12:05.845 --> 00:12:07.405 that there should be the development 256 00:12:07.465 --> 00:12:10.845 of a Black Foster Care Network by the department 257 00:12:10.965 --> 00:12:14.325 for education that would look to, um, uh, uh, 258 00:12:14.455 --> 00:12:16.205 train more Black foster carers. 259 00:12:16.205 --> 00:12:18.205 So more, uh, uh, Black children could be looked 260 00:12:18.205 --> 00:12:19.965 after by Black foster carers, 261 00:12:20.425 --> 00:12:22.445 but also to enable the sharing 262 00:12:22.585 --> 00:12:25.965 of good practice in things like skin and hair care 263 00:12:26.385 --> 00:12:28.485 and how to, uh, uh, if you are looking 264 00:12:28.495 --> 00:12:31.765 after whatever your own ethnicity, if you are looking 265 00:12:31.765 --> 00:12:33.445 after a Black, uh, a child 266 00:12:33.465 --> 00:12:36.445 who is experienced racism, do you feel prepared? 267 00:12:36.445 --> 00:12:37.805 Do you know what you're going to do 268 00:12:37.945 --> 00:12:39.565 and how you're going to respond to that? 269 00:12:39.945 --> 00:12:42.445 And I do think if we, if we were to develop some form 270 00:12:42.445 --> 00:12:44.885 of network, that would be a, a, a central place 271 00:12:44.885 --> 00:12:47.645 for resources that would really help improve that. 272 00:12:48.825 --> 00:12:50.685 The second one is we have to improve access 273 00:12:50.685 --> 00:12:51.725 to mental health support. 274 00:12:51.885 --> 00:12:54.085 I think we need to improve access to mental health support 275 00:12:54.085 --> 00:12:55.485 for all children in the care system. 276 00:12:55.825 --> 00:12:58.365 But we do need to think about as we do that, 277 00:12:58.745 --> 00:13:02.125 how do we ensure that the services that we develop are, uh, 278 00:13:02.135 --> 00:13:04.525 accessible to, uh, Black children in care? 279 00:13:05.505 --> 00:13:08.325 Uh, we need to think about this issue 280 00:13:08.425 --> 00:13:09.885 of over-criminalisation 281 00:13:10.345 --> 00:13:12.845 and take action regarding over-criminalisation 282 00:13:13.065 --> 00:13:14.605 for children in the care system. 283 00:13:15.185 --> 00:13:19.045 Uh, we've had sort of, uh, local protocols on this subject 284 00:13:19.305 --> 00:13:20.325 for, for many years, 285 00:13:20.665 --> 00:13:22.405 but they, they don't seem to be working, 286 00:13:22.705 --> 00:13:24.685 and it doesn't seem to have, have, 287 00:13:24.715 --> 00:13:27.245 have made the results, uh, that we'd like. 288 00:13:27.625 --> 00:13:29.885 So we need to really delve into some 289 00:13:29.885 --> 00:13:32.285 of those local protocols that do exist 290 00:13:32.785 --> 00:13:35.525 and ask, you know, what are they saying, uh, are they, 291 00:13:35.705 --> 00:13:36.925 are they offering support 292 00:13:36.925 --> 00:13:38.325 and are they actually doing things? 293 00:13:38.785 --> 00:13:40.045 Uh, and I know sort of some 294 00:13:40.045 --> 00:13:41.885 of Katie's research has suggested that, that some 295 00:13:41.885 --> 00:13:43.205 of the times they're possibly doing things 296 00:13:43.315 --> 00:13:45.125 that make this worse, not better. 297 00:13:45.545 --> 00:13:48.125 So I think we really need to review some of those, uh, 298 00:13:48.125 --> 00:13:50.845 local protocols and really think about that issue 299 00:13:50.905 --> 00:13:52.245 of over-criminalisation. 300 00:13:53.625 --> 00:13:56.165 Um, the, uh, uh, fourth one is we have 301 00:13:56.165 --> 00:13:58.965 to really improve understanding across the different 302 00:13:59.565 --> 00:14:02.165 agencies about what being care experienced is. 303 00:14:02.585 --> 00:14:05.325 And this was very much a, a recommendation 304 00:14:05.325 --> 00:14:06.365 of the Independent Review 305 00:14:06.365 --> 00:14:08.965 of Children's Social Care in England, which suggested 306 00:14:09.155 --> 00:14:11.925 that the corporate parenting principles that currently apply 307 00:14:11.925 --> 00:14:14.365 to children's services should start applying 308 00:14:14.585 --> 00:14:16.565 to all government departments 309 00:14:16.825 --> 00:14:20.085 and to other agencies that, uh, support this group. 310 00:14:20.425 --> 00:14:23.605 And I think that, uh, whoever wins the next election, 311 00:14:23.785 --> 00:14:27.245 we really need to see that recommendation taken forward 312 00:14:27.625 --> 00:14:31.085 and really gone. Because if within the criminal justice 313 00:14:31.185 --> 00:14:35.245 system, they actually had to, um, uh, uh, 314 00:14:35.245 --> 00:14:37.765 think about those corporate parenting principles 315 00:14:37.765 --> 00:14:40.205 that we apply within children's services, 316 00:14:40.705 --> 00:14:41.765 and they had to think about 317 00:14:41.765 --> 00:14:44.725 that within the probation system, they had to think about 318 00:14:44.725 --> 00:14:45.965 that within the prison system. 319 00:14:46.445 --> 00:14:48.885 I think we would get some improvements, 320 00:14:49.035 --> 00:14:50.405 some improvements in training, 321 00:14:50.755 --> 00:14:53.325 Some improvements in practice to think about 322 00:14:53.825 --> 00:14:57.565 how you better care for children who, uh, are 323 00:14:57.615 --> 00:15:00.205 after all the responsibility of the state 324 00:15:00.385 --> 00:15:02.725 and the state is their corporate parent. 325 00:15:03.425 --> 00:15:05.325 And when it comes down to the next government, one 326 00:15:05.325 --> 00:15:07.165 of the first things I want to see from the Ministry 327 00:15:07.165 --> 00:15:10.685 of Justice is an update report on The Lammy Review. 328 00:15:10.895 --> 00:15:11.965 Where have you got to? 329 00:15:12.215 --> 00:15:13.645 Where have you looked at in the 330 00:15:13.645 --> 00:15:15.285 recommendations that you've put forward? 331 00:15:15.655 --> 00:15:17.925 Which ones haven't been implemented? 332 00:15:18.105 --> 00:15:20.005 And what are you going to do to try 333 00:15:20.005 --> 00:15:21.645 to really push that review forward? 334 00:15:22.665 --> 00:15:24.765 So those are the main, um, uh, recommendations 335 00:15:24.765 --> 00:15:25.685 that we came up with.